asking the right questions

a Q&A with writer and tarot creator Meg Jones Wall

One of my biggest motivators when I started this newsletter was being able to expand the way people think about creativity. We all know the standard “creative” careers — visual art, music, writing, theater, design, etc — but there are so many more ways to be creative, and to be a creative person.

Many of us who grow up not necessarily feeling talented in those traditional creative spheres fall into the trap of thinking that because we’re not typically “artsy,” we aren’t actually creatives at all.

In her book The Maker’s Guide to Magic, my dear friend and teacher Andrea Hannah firmly pushes back on that idea. She writes, “Every single person [is] able to make something. And that, at its core, is what it means to be a creative. You are someone who makes something.” She goes on, “Whether you’re making lesson plans, butter noodles, space in your closet, or a cross-stitch with a curse word, it’s all valid, and it’s all on an equal playing field. What you create is of no lesser value than what anyone else creates in this world.”

Just like there are a myriad of ways to be a creative, there are just as many unique ways to use creativity for good. For this month’s Creativity Q&A, I spoke with writer and tarot reader Meg Jones Wall, who creates and shares tender, expansive tarot spreads offered freely to the world through their Instagram account, 3am.tarot. We chatted about creativity journeys, responding to community needs and critical moments, and meeting tension with tenderness in ways that meet people where they are.

creativity q&a with meg jones wall: on finding (and sharing) what resonates

Tell me a little bit about your relationship to creativity and creating and how that started for you.

So creativity, I think when I was young I kind of interpreted creativity as art and artistry. As a little kid, I thought being artistic was the way that one was creative. So I tried to draw and I really wanted to do, like, visual arts and fine arts. And I just straight up can't draw. It didn't stop me from trying, but boy, just no, not for me. But I really enjoyed art and I come from a very, very musical family. Everyone in my family sings and all of us play multiple musical instruments, like people in the Boston Pops, like legit perfect pitch. But it’s also a lot of church people, so it's like everybody's singing in choirs and stuff. And my dad's a really big film buff. And then everyone in my family loves to read. So I think that when I think about my upbringing and my childhood, it's really dominated by the church and like a lot of really oppressive like conformity and submission, like behavioral stuff that was really harmful. But I think one of the best things about my family growing up is that we love music and I was never discouraged from reading or from enjoying music or from watching TV and film, even video games. All of those things were totally okay. And so the arts were always part of my life.

That was like really one of the best things I think about my upbringing is that I really was allowed, so to speak, to participate in the arts and to really branch out beyond that idea of just like creativity being art, you know what I mean? And kind of figure out what mediums work for me, both that I love to participate in and just enjoy and consume, I guess is a weird word for art, but kind of what we do. And to also figure out which ones feel good for me to create within and to utilize for myself.

I think writing was something I always wanted to do early on, but as a kid, I only really read fiction. The only nonfiction I read was like Bible shit. So for a long time I was like, oh, I'm just not good at this. I'm not a writer, so I should find something else. And then as I got older and started reading nonfiction that wasn't like religious propaganda, I was like, oh, nonfiction is great. I could write this. And I started writing nonfiction. I was like, oh, this is the way for me. This works for me. And that's been very helpful because I'm probably not gonna write the next Anne of Green Gables, which is what I was trying to do as a child, but I can write about tarot, on spirituality, and like my life and other stuff in a way. And like food and travel and all of these different things that I've done over the years. So I think it was really about finding my niche and finding what worked for me. And I feel like that's kind of a defining quality of my creativity journey — figuring out not just what creativity means to me, and then what do I actually like, enjoy and feel like good about making myself?

How did the things that you're passionate about like your values and your personality, like how does that show up in your creative work — especially in your writing and the tarot spreads you design?

I think of myself as a pretty private person, whether I mean to be or not. Even when I think I'm being really vulnerable and sharing a lot, people are like, we had no idea about this, we've never heard this before. So I'm trying to be a bit more open in things, but I think to me it feels like the things that I'm passionate about are inextricable from my creative work. They just feel so interwoven to me.

I think that the things that I'm passionate about, the values that I'm passionate about, the work that I'm passionate about, the communities that I'm passionate about, it all shapes what I make. I know we'll probably talk about spreads a little bit more, but I think that when I'm thinking about tarot or when I'm thinking about beliefs or when I'm thinking about spirituality or I'm thinking about community or I'm thinking about like personal growth and transformation or I'm thinking about like politics or religion or — like some of those topics that I feel like can be taboo or a no-no in polite society or whatever, but I'm like, it's 2024, the world's on fire, let's talk about it. What is polite society anymore? — I think that all of those things are at the core of my creative work. And I feel like my creative work is really just about expressing the things that I care about and the things that I want to have value and take up space. Like they're just like different ways of exploring that. Like when I'm writing a spread or I'm writing a class or I'm thinking about what book I wanna write next or what kind of projects I wanna make. It's all coming from a place of something that I'm passionate about anyway. And it's like, okay, how can I make this into something that might resonate with other people and also let me pay rent, you know?

This sort of segues into some of the spreads you've been sharing — and you share so much. Can you talk a little bit about how you decided to say, okay, this is something I'm going to offer to the community for free?

Yeah, it's a good question. I want to say this in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to insult any other creators because I'm super not, but I feel very like, if something just pops into my head and it's very easy for me to make, I'm gonna give it away. If it's something that I have to work really hard at or that I think is a smaller piece of a much bigger puzzle, then I might still give it away, but attach it to or use it as like promotion to or connected to something that I am actively selling. And if the thing doesn't make sense on its own, like if it only makes sense in the context of a greater piece, then I keep it back behind a paywall or like as part of a broader experience, whatever shape that might take, is like the easiest way to designate how I do that.

But it's very much on instinct. I shared some ridiculous video game tarot spreads just this morning that are very just playful and silly. And it was very much, like, these popped into my head when I was trying to fall asleep last night. I thought they were funny, they gave me so much joy to make. They were so silly. And I was like, I hope people see these and like if they don't know the game, they're like, what the fuck is this? And if they do know the game, it makes them laugh and it's delightful. Maybe some people will actually use them. I don't know. But that's not really the point. And it's sort of part of a bigger thing.

My next offer is really thinking just about reading tarot in groups of people and like being really playful and silly with it. So it's kind of loosely connected via like the vibe. But I think I try to balance the more serious stuff and intensive stuff that I'm sharing with stuff that's also really playful and that feels really accessible. It doesn't feel hard to give away. And I think the way that my audience is and everyone's audience is different and the ways that people connect to their audience and communities is so wide ranging and complicated.

You’ve created and shared a lot of free tarot spreads that are really more timely, focusing on things like staying tender and for, you know, working through the hard stuff, and not giving up. Can you talk a little bit about how you craft them and like what you hope people will take away from them?

That's such a good question. I think that I really try to think about what lives underneath a certain question. I was just what I was at a panel for Jami Attenberg and her new book 1,000 Words — I've been in the 1,000 Words community for years. It helped me write Finding the Fool, like, I've written so much through those programs and she's just so great — and I got to go to her Brooklyn book event last week. One of the people that was there was Kristen Arnett, and she was talking about how sometimes writing is asking a question but trying to really figure out the question beneath the question — and that's what I think about every time I'm writing a spread even if it's a really simple one.

For example, like, if you look at this one, about staying tender, right? We think it's about compassion fatigue. We think it's about, oh, I'm just exhausted from caring about people. I just want to go back to my life and like sure There might be aspects of truth within that, but what lives underneath that? What's the desire for normalcy? What's the desire for safety? What's the desire for connection? What's the wanting to see an impact from what's happening instead of just feeling like you're spinning your wheels? Like, how can I dissect what I think the question is or what I think people think the question is?

And some of those spreads could be enormous, right? Those could be really huge spreads. And I will write longer spreads when I have to, but I have found that often even the biggest questions actually don't generally need that many cards if the positions are well crafted and they just get straight to the heart of the matter. Sometimes I think it's easier to just be kind of quick and dirty, so to speak. If you actually are willing to grab your cards and ask the hard questions, like, we’re gonna do it. Let’s go.

You clearly bring a lot of tenderness to not just the spreads that you create, but the captions that you put along with them. How do you decide how much to add in terms of commentary and like structure to those? I’m thinking especially about a recent spread you did, “So You Don’t Want to Speak Up,” where you specifically said, please don’t use this spread as a weapon or like, share it passive-aggressively.

Well, thank you for saying that. That means a lot because I feel like sometimes I'm walking a very fine line and sometimes it's a little scary.

That spread that you pulled that you mentioned about not wanting to speak up was one that I was sitting on for a couple of days because I was like, I think this is necessary. I feel like I need to write this, but I was like, I need to be really careful about how I'm presenting it and why I'm presenting it. I needed to do a little bit of soul searching because I was like, am I, did I passively aggressively write this spread? Like, did I write this spread to all out people that are in my orbit that I think should have spoken up and haven't said anything? That was the inspiration for the spread, but I was like, I have to make sure that I'm not weaponizing this spread by just putting it out into the world because I know people are going to see it. I know people are going to share this one.

In general, I try to think about how something would be received by someone who didn't know me. Because most of the people on the internet don't know me! So I try to think about, okay, if someone saw this without context, without knowing me or my work, how can I try to dance that line of vulnerability and tough love? How can I make this feel poignant, but still safe? How do I give people who might be in this position who know that they want to speak up or know that they should speak up or are feeling guilty about not speaking up, but are feeling an internal blockage or feeling fear or feeling something and are brave enough to grab their cards and perhaps consider doing a reading with a spread like this?

What do those people actually need to hear? And how can I craft something that's going to actually meet them where they are instead of just trying to make them feel guilty for not having spoken up yet? Because I really do try to design spreads to be used and to be tools and to be resources. And so I think that helps me kind of think about how much introduction they might need or how much they wanna say. I think with the more tender spreads, generally less is more, but I say more than with a playful spread. Like, let's let this be what it's meant to be, which is something that could be supportive of someone who really feels like they might want to make this particular change or take this brave step that feels really scary to them, rather than just yelling.

There’s a lot of clear intention in that tenderness, and it comes across in your work. Something I think about a lot is like, you know, we can't like guilt and shame our way to liberation. It's not going to build the movements that we want to build.

Yeah, that's, I mean, my partner and I were just talking about this. Like everyone is just in a crisis state. Everyone is in these really heightened emotions, and it can make people really want to dig their heels in. Because often it's about safety, it's about wanting to feel safe, it's about wanting to feel like you're on the right side of something, wanting to win whatever it is. And so like, there are people out there that are willing to fight and get in arguments and do those things.

And I'm just like not that person. I'm not good in fights. But I can do compassion. I can be a person who creates something tender for someone who is willing to do the hard work, even if it's just in the privacy of their home and they never tell anyone about it.

And I feel like that's what tarot can make a lot of space for — that very quiet, private reflection that doesn't have to be shared, but that can open up internal doors and I think create change in different ways.

What’s next for you when it comes to using your creative work to meet this moment?

I've been thinking about this so much. Like, okay, what does 2024 hold, but also like what direction is my work moving in? What do I feel like both drawn to and empowered to do? And like, what do I feel like my lane is? I think especially like the last few months there's been so much talk about what activism looks like and what activism means and like the different roles that we can all play in revolution and liberation. And thinking about myself as a perpetually exhausted immunocompromised person who's like, I really miss going to protests. I really fucking do. And also I cannot safely do it anymore. I used to do it a lot and I just with COVID, I just can't.

And so like thinking about, okay, what does it look like to be disabled and like doing activism work from home? And what am I uniquely qualified to do? And I'm like, okay, I really like holding space for people. How do I do that in a way that is using tarot?

It's been leading me to a few different places. But the one is that I really want to do more collective and community work, like with smaller groups or coming up with tools and workshops and things that small groups could do together. Really creating ways for people to build their own social groups that are learning together, that are using cards together for different purposes, integrating tarot into other parts of their lives beyond just tarot readings.

I've also just felt so called to grief work for a very long time. I bought my first tarot deck in 2016 and was pulling cards a lot then, but I still do it pretty frequently now, around like, what are my gifts, what are my skills, what are my abilities, what are my talents? And every time, I get Death, I get the 10 of Swords, I get the Three of Swords, I get the Eight of Cups, you know, these really chill, easy, like happy joyful cards that everybody wants to see. Like so much of my work feels like, when you boil it down to the root, it's I'm willing to sit with people in hard things and help them understand the choices that they have and the emotions that they're feeling and what they might wanna do next, but without putting pressure on that.

I've been thinking so much about grief — personal grief and collective grief and grief that doesn't have a solution, like grief that you're not gonna just get over, like climate grief, like the grief of being an American citizen and watching what our government does and what our tax dollars accomplish, you know, the grief of seeing this violence happening around the world and not feeling like we can do anything about it. Like there's so much big, big collective grief. And I really feel that my work is pulling me towards being involved in holding space for those kinds of emotions. So I've been trying to kind of figure out what that looks like. What does it look like to use tarot for a tool for the collective? And what does it look like to use tarot for grief? And how do those things mash up into something beautifully useful, that can be shared?

Meg Jones Wall (she/they) is a queer, chronically ill, NYC-based tarot reader, writer, teacher, and creator of 3am.tarot. Author of Finding the Fool with two new tarot books on the way, Meg's work has appeared in WIRED, Catapult, Autostraddle, Astrology Answers, Witchology, and more. Follow them on Instagram at @3am.tarot.

resources, links, and further reading

spotlight on: creativity, magic, and community

• listen: “Tarot for Activists: Tarot as a tool for social justice work, healing, and liberation” (Theresa Reed, “The Tarot Lady,” and Corinna Rosella of Rise Up Good Witch on the Tarot Bytes podcast)

• read: “Community Tarot Spreads to Connect and Explore” (by Alicia Vamvoukakis of The Embroidered Forest)

• donate:

  • The Laundromat Project (shelly’s pick!)

  • Doctors Without Borders (meg’s pick!)