we are here to create
creativity q+a with andrea hannah
There are a few beliefs that sit at the core of this newsletter. The first, and probably the most important, is that creativity is everywhere — and in all of us.
I owe that approach to this month’s Creativity Q+A guest, Andrea Hannah. Andrea is an author, astrologer, and a very dear friend. Her most recent book, The Maker’s Guide to Magic, gives the most beautiful definition of being a creative that I, personally, have ever read:
We have an entire generation of people who think that they aren’t creative at all because they don’t fit [certain] tropes. They think that because they like to paint houses instead of canvases, or make meals instead of music, they don’t have a creative bone in their body. And that is just not true.
I can honestly say that I have never come across someone who could not create. Maybe they hadn’t yet acquired the skills they needed to be able to make what’s in their imagination, or maybe they didn’t feel confident enough to follow their creative passions in earnest, but every single person was able to make something. And that, at its core, is what it means to be a creative. You are someone who makes something. (Maker’s Guide to Magic, Introduction)
If you are someone who makes something, you can use that creativity for good. I’ve been lucky enough to learn from Andrea for the past several years, and I’m delighted that she was willing to share some of her time for this month’s newsletter. We talked about creativity, spirituality, capitalism, pedagogy, and living tenderly in our decidedly un-tender world.
Read on for this month’s interview, and some exciting Rules for Ghosting book announcements as we enter the last three weeks before publication. (Yikes!)
creativity q&a with andrea hannah: creativity is everywhere
So, tell me a little bit about your relationship to creativity and creating.
I'm going to try to not make this so cliché because I'm sure anybody who ends up being a creative for a career has this whole like, "I've been creating since I was young" kind of vibe. What I will say is, yes, I've been creating since I was young, but I didn't start seriously writing until my late 20s. Not that I hadn't written before or wasn't interested in it, it was just, I have always been interested in creativity as like, everything, right?
I grew up in a very blue collar family, and I didn't even realize that creativity could be a career, or that writing could be a career. So I have always created. I've done visual art for a long time, I went to art school, did that until my teens and then, you know, dabbled in a bunch of other different stuff like sculpture making and song lyric writing and all kinds of things.
And then it wasn't until I did NaNoWriMo in my late 20s that I was like, "I think I could write a book!" Because up until that point, I had written a lot of short stories and gotten a lot of good feedback on them. But I remember my impulsive self being like, "I can never sit down and write a book." And then it turns out you can, you can do that. So that's pretty much how I got here! Just stumbling into book writing.
As one does.
Yeah, totally.
I want to go back to what you said about creativity being "everything," because you were the person who introduced me to this very expansive idea of what creativity can be and what makes someone a creative — which in many ways is the foundation of this whole newsletter. So I'm curious, where did that definition come from? And like, how did you come to like hold that?
I mean, how spiritual do you want to get here?
As spiritual as you want.
Well, it's no secret that my spiritual beliefs are pretty entwined with my creative beliefs. I explored spirituality and religion a lot in a very similar way that I did creativity, where I'm like, "What's this? I'm going to try this. I want to explore this. I want to see if I'm good at this." Apparently, I have to do something and fail to figure that out. I would like to be one of those people that does not do that, but I guess it makes me relatable, and gives me a lot of experience of what not to do and what to do.
But in terms of that journey, I grew up in the Catholic Church. I remember making my Confirmation at thirteen, and in the middle of the ceremony being like, "Hmm, this...isn't for me, yo."
"I realize I've just confirmed that I want to opt in, but actually I would like to opt out, thanks."
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then after many years at Catholic school, I was about to go to public high school as well, which gave me a little bit more freedom to do some exploring. And from there on out, all throughout my 20s, I just tried a bunch of stuff. I went to temple, I went to a mosque, I went to a few different Zen Buddhist ceremonies. And I did a lot of reading and research and kind of just came back around to this idea that in my belief, the entire purpose of being a human is to create.
When I tell people that they're all like, "Oh, no, I'm not, I'm not artistic, I'm not creative." But I really truly believe it's our birthright to create everything — your environment, your family, your found family, your garden, your business. To be human is to create. Those are synonymous to me.
There is no living without making something. So I have always coached from that perspective, taught from that perspective. Whenever I'm writing about creativity — and I'm sure you noticed this — I'll say, make a piece of art or write a book or start your business. I always throw in another thing that's not related specifically to the arts, because I want people to realize it’s all relevant. What other purpose is there besides to make stuff, right? Like, can you tell me?
I mean, it's certainly not capitalism.
No, that's the bad place, that's making us ill.
That's the anti-creativity.
Exactly.
I do think that a lot of people hear "creative" and think "artistic." And essentially, your ethos is like, actually no. Being artistic can be part of being creative, but they're not synonyms.
Yeah. And it's interesting. So my best friend Austin is an atheist, which is very funny to me, just because of who I am as a person. But we have such good conversations about this. Recently I was talking about depression in particular, and about when people might, you know, opt out of the earth experience. And he's like, "I don't understand that, because there is such a value to living a deep, immersive life." And I was like, "Yeah, but if you're somebody like me, you could be like, I'll just reincarnate the next time."
But it's interesting, because even though he isn’t spiritual, he will still say things like, “I just want a life that’s slow and immersive and I want to make things that mean something to me — he draws, he’s an illustrator — and I want to have time to make breakfast for my family.”
And I was like, "That's my belief, too." Like, what other purpose is there than to do those things? Even though he doesn’t believe in any of it, and I believe in almost all of it, we’re both still yearning for a very human, very creative experience.
I really agree with that — that the core of humanity is creativity and the drive to make things. It's kind of, you know — So often, I just think, people really need to just make something with their hands. When people are like, "You're too online, you need to go touch grass" — I think really people need to go...make something. Like, there's too much happening. Go make something.
Yes, which actually — well, that's going to answer one of your other questions. Can I skip around?
You can go wherever you want to go.
So one of the other questions you had was about how my values and the causes and communities I care about show up in my creative work and my teaching. I was thinking about this, this morning, and I was like — so I don't know if this is true for everybody, but I do think there is something happening right now to people because humans, like...none of us were meant to know as much as we know and process so much information about everything it is happening. Just, I don't think we're built for that. Like, I genuinely think it's traumatizing.
Agree.
Then if you add in the dimension of, let's say you're very tender hearted, which most creatives have a lot of compassion and empathy, and I'm using creative in the term of the arts in this moment, but you know, you have a lot of compassion and empathy because your job is literally translating humanity into your work. So you have to have it to be able to be effective at it. And now, imagine you've got this soft heart that feels so much, and there's so much information and so many images of war and abuse and all this terrible stuff.
No wonder we're all unwell! And for me, what I've come back to over and over again, is that I think that tenderness and empathy is just nonnegotiable as an artist. I've really moved into a hands-on, touching people's lives in a very relational way, and in a very tangible way. And I teach that way as well. One thing I do know about me specifically is that I'm very relational, and I'm more likely to give to causes that feel relational and personal to me. I see myself as a community connector, right? So that is how I put those values into what I give and what I teach as well.
So — I'm sorry, I'm going super roundabout here, I'll get there, I swear.
You're perfect. Never change. You're doing everything right.
I'm orbiting. I'm gonna get there eventually.
You're in a funnel. I can see it happening.
So basically, for me, my creativity is to touch people within my orbit as much as I can, and then to have them expand out where they touch people if they can, and on and on. Because going back to my core beliefs, I really think that this planet doesn't change, capitalism doesn't change, brokenness doesn’t change — it all doesn't change unless each individual has kind of like a creative reckoning, really, like recognizing their own power, recognizing what they have to offer, what they need to make in this world, whether it's make a family, a business, a piece of art, and really accepting their yearnings and gifts.
And I'm not saying accept in terms of, "oh, this is what I made for." Like, it's more of a, "I've always wanted to do this, but the world has told me I shouldn't want that." It's about breaking through that feeling. Just letting themselves love what they love and make what they want to make without shame or guilt.
So for me, my work is really focused on helping the people in my orbit understand and accept their creative impulses. I'm teaching about these things. I'm doing, you know, my little, my little counselor sessions, all that stuff, so that it breaks open and dissolves some of those barriers for them. And then it's a ripple effect, right? Because things like climate change, and the war in Gaza, like — when I think of that, my heart sinks because I can't do anything about that on a grand scale. But I can talk to people. And if I can talk to a lot of different people around me, eventually, hopefully enough of us are affected in a way that we can change those things in the future.
And so, for my values, I really also think about relationships. I can create a sense of safety with people for them to even be able to do this work. So that's where I just focus all of my energy, all of my teaching. And I know sometimes it doesn't look like big work. It's not like I'm running a million dollar fundraiser for, you know, climate change. But this is what I thrive in. This is what I like. This is where my skill set is. This is what I can do on a day to day basis.
Then jumping off of that, when it comes to volunteering and giving, I've noticed I follow this pattern as well.. Finding an artist, someone that I may have had one conversation with, and donating anonymously to their Patreon or fundraiser, or giving scholarships for my classes, or offering free runs on things. I like finding ways to support the community in that way as well.
I mean, it's something that I've always loved about the way that you teach. Like, there are definitely people out there who are like, "I'm gonna run a class. And once you're done with the class, like, I'm done with you people, good luck." But your whole sort of pedagogy is about relationship building. And it's like, the people who have taken your classes go on to work with you in other ways. Even the work that we've done together — I remember, like trading a Notion page for chart readings. And it was like, yeah, totally. That makes perfect sense.
And it really is so relational, what you do. It's a ripple effect of not just giving people more opportunities to keep working with you and connecting with you, but opening up sort of an understanding of what people are actually capable of, and then giving them an opportunity to go out and do more. And then they go on to impact other people.
Well, look at you. You're making this whole newsletter about creativity. And I am 100% certain that's going to impact people, or has already, even if they never tell you. Which is weird about sending a newsletter where I pour my heart out and I'm like, I hope you guys like it! Because you really don't get a lot of feedback.
Yeah, it's so rare.
And then — I know you know this — pretty much every time I send a newsletter somebody unsubscribes.
And I'm like, oh okay, it's fine. I see it now, like, this wasn't for you, but at the time I'm like "I just told you my soul, guys!"
"Hm, was I subscribed to your soul?"
Yeah, "I'm opting out of your soul." But like, it makes a difference. Somebody is going to read it, and then they're gonna be like, huh, maybe I should, if it's not me, another creative, look at their work. And then they might start to crack open. It's like firefighters coming with the jaws of life, you know? I think a lot of people, especially since 2020 and beyond, have closed up, it's like they're inside their car wreck and they're just trying to live in there and not thriving.
And that's fair because it's been intense, of course. But I see our work, yours and mine and everybody else that is a part of this movement. And it's really bringing the jaws of life and saying, like, "Hey man, there's fresh air out here."
Yeah, yeah. Come outside, make something. Touch some grass.
Yeah, get your hands dirty. It's good for you.
It's good for your soul. Please don't opt out.
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. That makes me happy.
Can you talk a little bit more about how teaching is an expression of creativity for you? One of the things I love about you is that you've been really open about the evolution of your courses and your retreats, and the way they've changed and evolved over time. I think people don't necessarily think of something like course development as creative work, but it really is creative work.
I honestly think there are so many times my work is divided into what I do for others, which is like teaching and courses and worksheets, and then what I do for myself which is my writing — like my more private work. And it's interesting because I often am more challenged by the teaching parts than the writing parts at this point — it's a different kind of challenge. But like, I feel like I'm working 100% of my brain to develop the teaching stuff, and maybe like 85% for the writing stuff.
I think that's what makes it so exciting. I have full control over the pedagogy and like what I teach and in what order, so I can be as creative as I want with that. Where, as you know, when you write stories for public consumption, there's like, act one, act two, whatever. So there's a little bit more structure to follow. But I will say, I am way more drained by a day of organizing and figuring out what I want to teach people and teaching it than I am by a day of writing.
I've always been a teacher, in one way or another. I taught in public schools for a long time and then did behavioral analysis work in public schools, and then I was a yoga teacher. I'm just used to telling people stuff.
And then when the pandemic happened, that's when I really made the leap, I think, from organized public school teaching to more of an esoteric type teacher after seeing the artist community struggling so much. Which is also why I didn't end up doing a more traditional path. Like, I have a degree in behavioral therapy, and I have half of a degree finished in counseling. And I never finished that, because I didn't like all of the parameters around it, all the legalities around interventions, because there are so many other modalities to use, right? Like astrology, yoga, somatic healing, EFT — there are so many things that I just didn't want to be constricted in that way. So anyway, all this said, I start these classes for the creative community that blended traditional therapy to more esoteric practices. And up until last year, everything I created was in response to the community’s need, not actively planning.
Which I think was critical in that very intense time. I had to take the pulse of the community and be like, "Where are we?" And then go from there. Because our capacity was so different, in terms of our ability to learn and grow. And I also knew I was coming at this with like, twenty years worth of knowledge. So I knew that if I just made some course, and y'all weren't emotionally there for it, then that's not going to do anything for you.
But creating in a way that's just a reaction to need — I've learned that you can only do that for so long. It's very, very draining. And very emotional and taxing in a lot of ways, because you're constantly working on the fly, too. So I had to take time off from teaching anything last year and sit down and be like, "We are still in a pandemic, but we are no longer in crisis mode. So now that I can take a breath and we're all like calibrating, what is it we're gonna do? What do I wanna make, too? What structure can I put to this that is helpful?"
So that's the evolution of it, really. I spent time rethinking, and taking out my materials and rebranding all this stuff. And I also honestly looked at it with the mind of, "What do I like to do? What do I wanna teach?" Because that matters. Because I can't burn out. I have to want to do it too. That is what has changed the most about retreats. Now I'm already sitting down thinking, okay, 2025, what retreats are we doing? And what am I teaching for Unearthed? Instead of being like, "Are you guys good?"
I feel like I shepherded as many people as I could through crisis mode. And now I'm like, “I should take care of my own emotional needs as well.”
Yeah. Good for you. Good shepherding!
Thank you.
You talked a little bit about how you're already thinking into 2025. Can you talk about what's next? What are you working on that you're excited about?
So I am planning on teaching Unearthed again. I am trying to slowly develop a trio of retreats that I would like to do either every year or every other year. We had Constellate in the spring, which is focused on connection with other artists and different thoughts of, you know, what is it? Like different ethos, basically, when it comes to creativity, because there was the technology side and the arcane side, and everything in between.
And then there's Radiate, which is in New York. And that is like you projecting out into the world and more visible. And then I am developing one that I want to call Illuminate with a few other people that's based on the moon. And that's more spiritual practice like yoga and the internal work. I was going to try to schedule that for like early 2025. But just with the election coming up and stuff, I'm like...I gotta take the collective pulse. That might be a 2026 and beyond thing, we'll see. But ideally, that's where I'm headed.
Then when it comes to my writing work, I've got two books coming out next year with The Wildest Things in February, and then I Killed the King in September. And then I don't know when you're going to post this, but I'm waiting on a contract. So if I sign it before, you can put this in your newsletter. But I got commissioned by Marvel to make an Agatha tarot deck.
Oh, my God. I love that. That's so cool.
I know. I've been waiting on the contract for weeks now, but it's supposed to be coming. And then that tarot deck is supposed to come out in 2025 with the show too.
That's so cool. Is there anything else you want to share, or anything else you want people to know?
I think really, just, keep doing whatever you can do. Like — stuff's about to get wild with the election again. And I just sit there and go, "I'm going to have to shut off my news app for a little bit." And that's okay! You can opt out for a minute sometimes and be like, "Okay, what can I do in my immediate surroundings?" And sometimes that might be resting and sometimes that might be taking care of your kid and that's okay.
That's big work. That's huge work. And necessary. So that's my first suggestion, is like, you can opt out of news once in a while to take care of your immediate surroundings. Touching grass is great. Go outside. The more you can come back into your body and re-regulate, that's going to make so much of a difference. I drag my corpse outside every day to be like, all right, I'm going for my little mentee health walkies. That's what you gotta do, man. That's what you gotta do.
Andrea Hannah is the critically-acclaimed author of Where Darkness Blooms, The Maker's Guide to Magic, and several other novels. She teaches creatives all over the globe through her retreats and workshops. You can find her on socials @andeehannah.
updates from shelly
We’re officially less than three weeks out from publication day for Rules for Ghosting, and I am in!!! my!!! feelings!!!!!!! about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A few exciting updates:
Finished copies of Rules for Ghosting are here, queer, and absolutely stunning! So stunning that I even conquered my fear of being on video to record this unboxing video. I KNOW.
If you want to acquire your very own finished copy before everyone else, you can enter to win one of 15 copies currently up for grabs via Goodreads! The current giveaway runs until August 14, so get your name in soon!
(Also, if you haven’t already, please add Rules for Ghosting to your shelf on Goodreads — that also helps show publishers that they should let me write more books! I would love to get to 15k adds before pub day, and we’re less than 2.5k away. Can we make it happen?)
#ICYMI, I’m doing signed preorders through my wonderful local indie! Preorder your copy from The Bookloft and use the “order comments” box at checkout to indicate any special messages or personalization, and my handy-dandy sharpie and I will make sure they get to you. 💜
There’s still time to register for my book launch event at Bluestockings Cooperative on August 20! I’ll be chatting with the ever-wonderful Haley Jakobson about all things gay and ghostly, and you should be there, too! Grab your tickets here.
resources, links, and further reading
spotlight on: expanding definitions of creativity
read: “definitions of creativity” (a collaborative list of survey responses from students at California State University, Northridge)
listen: “the creative’s mind” (Professor David Alais on the Never Not Creative podcast)
donate: creatives for climate (reach out about supporting their work by emailing hello@creativesforclimate.co)